How bad was the trade?

[vega51]

Oswalt has a 1.38 whip.

Hirsh?? 1.38
Buch?? 1.34


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Jennings, 1.31, 1 win and bad elbow. OUCH


Buch started very slowly, is pitching very good lately.

For the third straight year we have Oswalt allowing 1 hit per inning, not good.

This year he is walking so many MORE BATTERS and thats why he is looking so bad outhere.

[hembo36]

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[hembo36]

i thought trading hirsh was a bad move..They can have the bunter and buch though

[vega51]

I really like buch but i would had done the buch and taveras for jennings, BUT NO HIRSH.

[chandler44]

Oswalt's not having a good year by his standards.

Of course, it's far better than what Hirsh or Buchholz are doing.

This makes a nice case that shows why WHIP is secondary, not the most important. Right now, Hirsh's WHIP is 1.38. Oswalt's is 1.38 also, but let's look at their ERAs: Hirsh: 5.06 Oswalt 3.55. For grins, here's Buchholz' era: 5.06. Jenning's? 3.63.

Going by WHIP it would look like they've been similar pitchers. Looking at their ERAs, anyone can see who's been by far better.

Of course the trade still looks like a bad idea, but let's be honest about things. Neither Hirsh nor Buchholz have been even average so far in 2007.

[chandler44]

Well it appears that baseball-reference wasn't updated. Buchholz' era is actually 4.88.

[vega51]

whip tells how a pitcher is doing.

An ERA tells you if a pitcher STRUGGLED in some innings BIG TIME.


I like the whip over the ERA to tell me how good a pitcher is PITCHING.

So far Oswalt is pitching AWFUL baseball, worse than the 3.55 ERA.

he is walking too many people and AGAIN, allowing a lot of hits per innings.

OSWALT IS HAVING A VERY BAD YEAR.

1.38 whip is very bad especially for a number 1 pitcher.

[vega51]

and for the kind of money he is making.

[chandler44]

vega51 said:

whip tells how a pitcher is doing.

An ERA tells you if a pitcher STRUGGLED in some innings BIG TIME.

Whip tells you how many baserunners the guy allowed. That's it. It is flawed because it doesn't take into account guys hitting for power. As I just pointed out, you can have 2 different guys with similar WHIPs but their ERAs are very different. Oswalt's been much better than Hirsh, almost 1 and a half runs per game better, but to use that secondary stat, they look the same. They're not.

It doesn't do you any good to know how many baserunners a pitcher is allowing if you don't know what types of hits they're getting on with. A guy with a WHIP of 1.20 allowing only singles is going to be much, much, much, much better than a guy with a WHIP of 1.20 allowing doubles, triples, and home runs. WHIP doesn't reflect that, that's why it should never be used by itself to measure ability. It's far too limited and narrow in scope. It's like trying to judge a batter's total offensive output using batting average alone.

This is all IMO of course.

[redbaron]

I would like to have Taveras in the outfield with Lee and Pence and I sure as hell would rather have Buchholz and Hirsch than Jason Jennings, who can walk at the end of this season.

[vega51]

If a pitcher has a 1.20 whip he is going to have a nice year.

[astrobuddy]

The trade isnt good or bad yet. As has been said 1000 times, Bucholz and Hirsch havent dont squat and Willy is what Willy is.

Jennings got hurt. It happens. It happened to Pettitte as well in his 1st year. The grade on the trade is incomplete at this point. We will see what Jennings does the rest of the year.

Once again.. its too early to be making proclamations and outcomes.

[mikegallo]

vega51 said:

If a pitcher has a 1.20 whip he is going to have a nice year.

I have a bone to pick with you here.

You are correct that generally WHIPS and ERA's will be pretty correlated generally because they both don't facor in some luck inflated stats.

I don't have to tell you that ERA is not a good way of judging a pitcher. You yourself has said that many times. So I question if you don't like ERA, why do you like a stat is dependent upon virtually the same things as ERA?

I mean generally WHIP is due to 3 things: walks, strikeouts, and luck.

IMO, K/BB i the etric that you are really trying to use with WHIP, but the difference s WHIP lets luck play into it. If a pitcher runs into an arrayof BAPIP singles even thoughhe strikes ot plenty, his WHIP will be high, even tough he has pitched quite well. K/BB accomplishes what WHIP does, but it doesn't let luck mess it up.

[astrobuddy]

Damn.. dont go there. How can you question his knowledge? You dont know the minors like Vega does.

[mikegallo]

astrobuddy said:

Damn.. dont go there. How can you question his knowledge? You dont know the minors like Vega does.

My sarcasm detector is off the charts.