Dierker

[crashtest]

In the history of MLB, does anybody know how many players who have thrown no-hitters that have also gone on to manage? I really can't even think of that many major league pitchers who have gone on to manage. There was Roger Craig, Tommy Lasorda (did he ever pitch in the majors??). It seems most managers are former middle infielders and catchers.

Anyway, Dierker is the only no-hit pitcher to come to mind to later go on to manage. Are there any 20 game winners to have later gone on to manage? Any 20 game winners who ALSO threw a no-hitter come to mind? Most outstanding pitchers don't even strike me as the least bit capable of managing. Could you imagine Sandy Koufax, or Nolan Ryan, or Roger Clemens, or Tom Seaver, or Bob Gibson as managers??

If there are others, how many led their teams to the post-season?

Of course, the problem with this line of reasoning is described by Bill James in his Hall of Fame Book. Basically, he took issue with fans who have a favorite player and then carve out a special niche for him: My boy Joe Schmoe is the only player with X doubles and Y triples and Z pinch hit appearances along with N stolen bases and R homeruns NOT to be in the HoF.

But I think it is different when you are campaigning for a guy for a lifetime achievement/contribution award. I think Dierker is truly unique in the annals of baseball history - to offset all the pinstripe pukes in the ANALS of baseball history.

[spudder]

Only other no-no pitcher to manage was Bob Lemon (I looked it up.....no credit for info)

[Coach]

Crash,

I'm going to offer a different perspective with the intent to not piss you off. I like you as a person and don't want to fight over something as silly as an opinion.

It's my opinion that Dierker was made the manager of the club because Drayton didn't know crap about baseball. Dierker got control of the club just as the key players were reaching their prime and we brought in some veteran talent like Alou and the big unit. Dierker didn't get any offers after he was canned because in baseball circles there wasn't a great deal of respect for his accomplishments as a manager.

[texiban001]

In his defense, Drayton STILL doesn't know sh*t about baseball!

[redbaron]

Drayton will NEVER know sh*t about baseball. As long as he pockets the $$$$$, that's all he's concerned with. If he knows anything at all, he will fire Purpura. Don't look for that to happen because Timmy is Drayton's lapdog and tells him what he wants to hear.

[crashtest]

admin said:

Crash,

I'm going to offer a different perspective with the intent to not piss you off. I like you as a person and don't want to fight over something as silly as an opinion.

It's my opinion that Dierker was made the manager of the club because Drayton didn't know crap about baseball. Dierker got control of the club just as the key players were reaching their prime and we brought in some veteran talent like Alou and the big unit. Dierker didn't get any offers after he was canned because in baseball circles there wasn't a great deal of respect for his accomplishments as a manager.

Coach, I actually agree with your opinion 100%. But, what does it really say about Dierke?. Most of success is being at the right place at the right time. Do you mean to tell me that, even WITH the "Perfect Storm" of talent and opportunity that ANY OTHER MANAGER would have done BETTER than going to the post season 4 out of 5 years? Terry Collins? Jimy Williams? Phil Garner? Tony Pena? Cecil Cooper? 100 win seasons are very special. Even GREAT TEAMS often fail to attain one. Dierker has one under his belt.

Agreed, the ONLY team Dierker was fit to manage was the Astros. Drayton could have made no better choice at the time. I remember calling in to Ed Fowler's radio talk show to say they should make Dierker manager. He guffawed my opinion. I nearly fell out of my seat at the breakfast table in St Louis (I was there by chance and got to see a Cards/Padres play-off game) a week later when I read in the paper that THEY DID.

Anyway, you can't take his record away from him. His teams accomplished a lot and I doubt ANYONE would have done any better.

[Coach]

The problem was in the post season, Dierker got his ass handed to him.

[crashtest]

admin said:

The problem was in the post season, Dierker got his ass handed to him.

Yep, he should have played Jose Vizcaino and Daryle Ward instead of Biggio and Bagwell.

[Coach]

Not really that, it was things like not pitching Randy Johnson every time Bochy threw Kevin Brown when the Astros went against the Padres. Dierker was really stubborn as a manager.

[crashtest]

spudder said:

Only other no-no pitcher to manage was Bob Lemon (I looked it up.....no credit for info)

Thanks Spuds. Lemon indeed pulled the trifecta of a no-hitter, several twenty win seasons and managing a team in the post-season - he was the last manager standing in the Bronx Zoo for the 1978 World Champs after Steinpuke went through whatever re-incarnation of Billy Martin it was and d*ck Howser.

[redbaron]

Dierker couldn't manage his way out of wet paper bag. Preston Gomez was a better manager than Dierker. Dierker was a good pitcher and an excellent color analyst for games. He is also a pretty good writer. He sucked at being a manager.

[crashtest]

redbaron said:

Dierker couldn't manage his way out of wet paper bag. Preston Gomez was a better manager than Dierker. Dierker was a good pitcher and an excellent color analyst for games. He is also a pretty good writer. He sucked at being a manager.

How can you say that? Go on the Cards forums. There are guys like you who say TLR sucks as a manager. Most of us think Phil Garner sucks. I think going to the post-season 4 out of 5 years was indicative that Dierker did a pretty good job. A 102 season means SOMETHING. Was it HIS fault that the bronze statues couldn't hit their blood sugar levels in the post season? Was it HIS fault that the TV ratings had us playing in the late afternoon haze in SD (a low offensive environment compounds the homefield advantage of batting last). Was it HIS fault that we ALWAYS had to go through a team that made the post-season EVERY YEAR of Jeff Bagwell's career. Does Bobby Cox suck as a manager since he hardly EVER won a WS despite going to the prom EVERY year of his managerial life?

I think Bill Virdon was the best manager we ever had. Even he made a lamentably stupid decision to take out several veterans when we blew Game 5 of the 1980 NLCS. Larry Dierker was our second best. WHO in the hell do you think was better? Harry Craft? Lum Harris? Grady Hatton? Harry Walker? Leo Durocher? Bob Lillis? Terry Collins? In context, Art Howe was a very good manager - he just didn't have enough talent to show it. Phil Garner has had considerable talent at his disposal, especially in a perenially weak division. But he has a completely tin ear for the rhythm of the game. I'll bet he has the record for bringing in a pitcher who then goes on to give up a HR before he records an out. It must happen 10 times or more per season. And we went nearly the entire season last year without a walk-off win - meaning Garner could never push the right button to get a hot hitter in there to come through in the clutch.

[sadoug]

I would take Art howe in a heart beat right now.

[hembo36]

coach...i couldnt possibly agree any more..Dierker? What did he do? they had a hell of a team when he was here...It was an easy gig and to be honest he really sucked..With that team they should have been in the WS....i liken his tenure to the Atlanta braves pitching coach around that time...what the f**k was mazzone going to tell 3 cy young winners?

[hembo36]

crash..i have always liked you and we have gotten along, but whats with all the dierker stuff lately? This and the Tom seaver debacle?