JR Richard

[chandler44]

crashtest said:

Jeesh, Chandler.... JR doesn't deserve to have his jersey retired.

Jeesh, Crashtest, in my opinion, and in the opinions of the thousands who have signed my online petition, he does.

Either way, it's just an opinion. I'm no more right about it then you are. At the end of the day, if you don't support the movement and don't want to sign the petition, that's your right. I've got signatures of plenty of people who agree

[hembo36]

well if uncle drayton thinks he can make a dime more than he usually would, it will happen

[crashtest]

chandler44 said:

crashtest said:

Jeesh, Chandler.... JR doesn't deserve to have his jersey retired.

Jeesh, Crashtest, in my opinion, and in the opinions of the thousands who have signed my online petition, he does.

Either way, it's just an opinion. I'm no more right about it then you are. At the end of the day, if you don't support the movement and don't want to sign the petition, that's your right. I've got signatures of plenty of people who agree

Opinions, to be valid, have to maintain some internal consistency. Those which do are much more worthy of being called "right". The recent Mitchell Report highlights the cognitive dissonance of condemning anabolic steroid users while condoning heroes from the cocaine era to the point of retiring their numbers.

I think JR's cocaine use was probably known to management at the time. They probably said, "Sh!t JR, lay off the blow and you won't feel bad". You are damning the team for missing the diagnosis. Don't you think cocaine might have confounded the diagnosis? Don't you think cocaine might have been a causative factor in his arterial thrombosis which directly led to his debilitating stroke? I have referenced a pertinent medical article above if you and you fellow petitioners refuse to see what is more likely to be the truth to the matter.

Does anybody know the outcome of the malpractice suit JR promptly filed against the team's doctors after his stroke? I am sure the defense would have brought up cocaine use unless the matter was settled confidentially to save embarrassment to both parties. I view the fact that JR and the club remain relatively aloof as further support of my version of the affair. Sorry guys, crackheads don't deserve to have their numbers retired. Sure, athletes aren't supposed to be role models, but, de facto they are. That's why they get the big bucks. Otherwise, what they do is completely worthless. Those who do embrace the role model gig deserve enshrinement. Those who actively refuse to and participate in anti-social /illegal/misanthropic activities need to be kicked to the curb as anti-role models: "See kids, this is what happens when you act like a jerk".

[jamesa46]

Let me say something about J.R. Richard. When the TBHoF inducted him, both Tal Smith and Gerry Hunsicker graciously joined J.R. in the honor by having photos taken together.

In January shortly after the induction, the Astros chose to recognize J.R.'s induction by honoring him at the Astros Annual Baseball Dinner. Milo was to do the props and the spotlight would be shown on J.R. sitting at the table. Trouble is, J.R. didn't bother to show up....spotlight is turned on and shines on an empty seat.....a few folks with the Astros stepped up to get the organization to recognize J.R. at their annual dinner and all they got was red faces and embarrassment.

It's this kind of continual irresponsibility by Richard that makes it near impossible seeing his jersey number retired by the team.

[chandler44]

Opinions, to be valid, have to maintain some internal consistency. Those which do are much more worthy of being called "right".

Actually, Crash, my opinion is quite valid, no matter how vehemently you might try to argue to the contrary.

The recent Mitchell Report highlights the cognitive dissonance of condemning anabolic steroid users while condoning heroes from the cocaine era to the point of retiring their numbers.

There is no cognitive dissonance. One of them is a performance enhancer that is basically cheating; the other is a recreational drug that didn't help enhance his performance at all. Furthermore, no one's 'condoning' the cocaine use.

Since we're not going to allow his jersey to be retired because he reportedly abused cocaine, then let's un-retire the jerseys of Wynn, Cruz, and Dierker because all three were reputed to be amphetamine users during their playing days. In order to avoid any cognitive dissonance, we should kick those three to the curb for their anti-role model behavior.

But, like I said, if you don't agree, it doesn't affect me in the slightest. Trust me when I say there are plenty enough supporters, including Jeff Pearlman, who wrote this article for Espn.com about the issue, that losing your 'vote' isn't a huge blow. It's a bit iffy right now, but I'm fairly certain that I'll manage to survive with your support for the cause. You can keep spinning your wheels on this one if you like, but if you think I'm going to get dragged any farther into a pointless back and forth over an issue that neither of us are likely to budge on, you're sadly mistaken. Hope you have a Merry Christmas!

[crashtest]

Chandler - recall the quotes I cited regarding how the cocaine scandal threatened the fabric of the game like no issue since the Black Sox scandal. That referenced article was indistinguishable from what is currently being written about the Mitchell Report. If there are any spinning wheels here, I think they are on your bandwagon of support to get JR's jersey retired, especially in the current climate affected by the maelstrom of PEDs. If JR came clean on his past, I would be in support of his recognition. If Christmas means anything, it means that the hope of redemption is there for us all. I sincerely wish you a Merry Christmas as well.

[sadoug]

yaknow, Crash....watching your skewed sense of logic on this thread makes me now understand why, in a different thread, you were unclear as to whether to wash your hands before , or after you went to the bathroom

[crashtest]

sadoug said:

yaknow, Crash....watching your skewed sense of logic on this thread makes me now understand why, in a different thread, you were unclear as to whether to wash your hands before , or after you went to the bathroom

1. JR is named by Enos Cabell in his testimony as a cocaine user/abuser.

2. JR denies he used cocaine.

3. JR suffers a stroke when a blood clot embolizes from his subclavian artery. Arterial thrombosis (as opposed to venous thrombosis) is very unusual. He undoubtedly had thoracic outlet syndrome. Cocaine (see my referenced medical article about cocaine and arterial insufficiency) a) accelerates the clotting mechanism b) causes arterial constriction c) should be suspected in cases of arterial insuffiency of the extremities. The "perfect storm" comes into confluence during that ill-fated warm-up session.

4. JR sues the Astros and the team physicians for malpractice. However, there is a very reasonable suspicion that JR brought the cascade of events upon himself by his illegal use of cocaine which might not have been known to the physicians since JR continues to lie about (not) using cocaine to this day.

Logical conclusion: The Astros do not feel JR should have his jersey retired - I can't say that I blame them.

Furthermore, it is not entirely clear that cocaine is not a performance enhancing drug - at least in the short term. Hell, Dock Ellis threw a no-hitter spaced out on LSD. South American Indians chew cocoa leaves to enhance their performance whilst running through jungles for days on end hunting for food - it increases stamina and endurance. Perhaps when JR brought that 102 mph fastball at the 1980 All-Star game, he was on more than a natural high. I wonder how much of JR's dominance was due to hitters saying to themselves, "I'm digging in against a 6'8" guy bringing 100 mph heat, with a 90 mph slider AND he's high on coke - I gotta be crazy".

I think there is enough analogous similarity to the on-going steroid scandal that it is proper/logical to demand consistency with how we view the perpetrators of both scandals. It is my opinion that it is not consistent to clamor for the retirement of JR's jersey on the one hand and the banishment of Clemens from Mount Olympus on the other. I think it is a stretch to call the logic here "skewed".