ol arod

[vega51]

WOW, you don't take into consideration that Guerrero hit .324 with 38 homers and 38 doubles.

You know, WHAT YOU DONT SEE is that a player doing that at that age, and continuing to do it is what makes A HALL OF FAMER.

mAYBE you'll understand with this example:

Bagwell.

Bagwell is a hall of famer, and Berkman is not.

bAGWELL is BETTER THAN bERMAN.

Berkman IS NOT in the same league with Bagwell, I DON'T CARE WHAT NUMBERS YOU GIVE.

Berkman, starting to give those numbers at age 25 MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE.

I know you will NOT understand it but thats the difference between A HALL OF FAMER AND A GREAT PLAYER.

Maybe you'll understand with this example, BAGWELL. He started giving great numbers at age 22 or 23, NOT 25 OR 26

[vega51]

gUERRERO, same age, MORE HOMERS, MORE DOUBLES, BETTER AVERAGE, MORE EVERYTHING except WALKS.

[hembo36]

dennis..you cant compare two different positions in regards to fielding% Thats like saying derek lee is as good as greg maddux..
They are both good at fielding but can derek lee pitch? I dont get into these defense type arguments unless its a position vs same position type deal..however, since it was brought up..lance berkman can play right field so its actually ironic he was compared to vlad...vlad is a much better defensive player than berkman...YES I have seen both live

[chandler44]

To discount Berkman and his skills because he happens to be less of a player compared to one the best players of our era seems really silly and unseemly.

I couldn't agree more. No, he's not ARod, but who in baseball is? ARod & Berkman are *both* great players, ARod is just better. That's not a knock on Berkman, just the truth.

The funny thing is, some people will argue forever about what 'words' you use to classify or discuss a player. If you don't use their acceptable words, then they'll argue until the cows come home that you're wrong. If anyone's that concerned about whether I say berkman is 'great' or a "hall of famer', then I bet that person needs to get a hobby.

[hembo36]

Theres facts and then reality...more often times than not people here dont make the distinction. either because they are obtuse or fckn stupid.. Why should something like fact get in ones way? hell, if an astro hasnt done it or isnt currently doing it, its never been done... very few of these guys get to the hall...Thats fact....I saw the comparison for what it was. it was silly as hell...How could lance berkman be comparable if nobody else is? Thats more or less saying he comes in at #2 or 3...Thats false....

it really cant be made any clearer, can it? lance would play on every team in MLB...that of course doesnt mean he will be the best on that team..it simply means he is good enough to play anywhere(defense not withstanding) The fact some are actually making a case is more bizarre than comical. I assure you most other boards would be able to see theres no real comparison....

i think the stats between berkman and vlad are more comparable
chandler is right on one of the things he said though...people often times use stats to benefit their current argument(see son gukos first comment) when you compare a player compare the whole deal

I dont think what vega said is untrue...arod could retire this very second and be a shoe in for the hall...berkman cant

I mentioned it not long ago but i argued for about 2 or 3 years that ryan leaf was a better prospect than peyton manning and then the argument started looking a little silly to keep saying..

theres no real comparison between arod and berkman..thats clear cut, however, its not a fair comparison to begin with...I admit the vlad vs berkman thing would hold more water...while i think vlad is a better all around player and hitter their stats are closer

[hembo36]

btw...per many people here, the rules for getting into the hall have changed over the years...a lot of hall worthy guys arent there and some who are shouldnt be there....berkman is going to have to pick up the pace and keep it up or he will not get in...i also dont see bagwell getting in and he is better than berkman...

think about how many people have played and how many are in the hall.....you're seeing the last of them for a while
bonds, maddux, piazza, glavine, clemens, biggio, randy johnson
and frank thomas

later on,pedro martinez, arod and jeter are guaranteed but who else? nobody else is even really close..not even pujols

i guess the point is people still have to have the numbers or it doesnt matter how hard they tried

[dennis2112]

vega51 said:

Maybe you'll understand with this example, BAGWELL. He started giving great numbers at age 22 or 23, NOT 25 OR 26

Its not Berkman's fault that he was not puttings numbers up when he was 21. Bagwell was the reason he did not come to the big leagues sooner.

Bagwell is a borderline HOF player. May not ever make it in. Berkman will make it past 500 HRs at his current pace. Bags would have too had he not been forced to retire due to injury.

It is completely logical to compare players that have played the same number of seasons.

If Vlad has played in 13 and Berkman played in 9 , of course Berkman's stats would be less. Vlad has played almost 50% more seasons then Berkman. If you take the regular season average of Berkman's stats over the first 9 years and add in the average for the next 4, Berkman's numbers are BETTER than Vlad's.

That would be a fair comparison. Just because Berkman was not playing in the majors earlier does not make him a bad player. It means he had a great player in front of him at the major league level that prevented him from coming up earlier.

[chandler44]

I assure you most other boards would be able to see theres no real comparison....

Then feel free to go post on most other boards.

Where are these mythical boards you're talking about? I'm curious as to what you consider a 'real board', since obviously you don't think much of this one.

per many people here, the rules for getting into the hall have changed over the years.

Who said they've changed, and how did they say they've been changed?

i also dont see bagwell getting in

If Bagwell doesn't get in, it's only because the voters are stupid and can't look past stupid things like milestones. With or without the 500hr on his resume, he's on a very short list of best 1b ever.

[vega51]

you don't see a DIFFERENCE between a hALL of FAMER and a great player??/

I do.

And Dennis, AT THE SAME AGE, Vlad has much better numbers.

[chandler44]

No, I said I thought it was pointless to argue about such semantics.

[vega51]

really???////

Now, you see the difference???/

Or do you have BErkman and Arod in the same sentence.

ARe both EQUALLY great??/////

Do you take Vlad or Berkman??/////

Are both EQUALLY great?////

Do you think Berkman is going to be a Hall of Famer??////

[astrobuddy]

Neither Berkman NOR Vlad are HOF'ers yet.

If you are saying Vlad is in the HOF NOW, you are nuts. He isnt.

No one knows what will happen when Berkmans career is over. He is on a pace that he may have had a HOF career. Saying anything less is silly.

[hembo36]

what boards?chandler, do you honestly and truly believe arod and berkman are the same..come on...you pick the board and we will post a suvey..lance berkman vs arod...in all honesty who do you really think will win?

[hembo36]

ab i do agree with that assessment..They both might be but not yet.....Neither have one of the magical numbers..neitehr have the big awards....however, i do think vlad has a leg up on berkman...

[hembo36]

chandler..you were the one that said the hall has changed LMFAO...bonehead...before you just jump in to pull a chandler at least remember what was said....i dont know where the thread is but you said specifically the hall has changed over the years..
i think i mentioned the fact berra and ford didnt get in on the first time and you said 'well the criteria has changed somewhat over the years' (or something close to that...