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Post by chandler44 on Jul 2, 2007 13:58:15 GMT -5
by the way, just because Bill James says Biggio is better does not mean he is right. That can actually go both ways. Just because you say he's NOT better does not mean you are right. James' opinions are not the word of God, so to speak. What he writes are just opinions, but you better believe that what he writes are highly thought and well-researched opinions that he can support. His opinion is highly respected in baseball. What's wrong with that? Jackson had a higher OPS and OPS+ despite playing in a weak offensive era. |
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Post by jamesa46 on Jul 2, 2007 14:28:09 GMT -5
I think Sandberg and Alomar were better 2nd basemen because they started as SS and then moved and ended at 2b. Sandberg moved to 3b and then 2nd when they acquired Ron Cey and Alomar moved to 2nd because they had Templeton at SD and then Vizquel at Cleveland. They had the arm and covered a lot of ground. Biggio was a converted catcher to 2nd. He was very good but not as good as the other defensively. I remember seeing ground balls hit to Sandbergs left at Wrigley that was rolling so slowly because of the high grass that once Sandberg dove for it and caught the ball in his glove it instantaneously looked like Sandberg had exceptionally superior range over his contemporaries. Even Dierker commented about it after the play. In the Astrodome that same ground ball would have skipped by Sandberg so fast he would have been frozen flat-footed. |
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Post by vega51 on Jul 2, 2007 14:47:47 GMT -5
Jackson better than Clemente?  ?? Hmmmm, enough said. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN OF THE JURY, I REST MY CASE. |
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Post by chandler44 on Jul 2, 2007 14:50:29 GMT -5
Actually, you haven't even presented your case yet.
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Post by vega51 on Jul 2, 2007 14:52:37 GMT -5
yes, clemente vs jackson, ENOUGH SAID, really.
No brainer.
To argue that is not smart, really.
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Post by chandler44 on Jul 2, 2007 15:02:12 GMT -5
BTW, it's not that I necessarily disagree, but the difference between them certainly isn't as wide as you might think. Like I said, Jackson's OPS was higher and his OPS+. Those are pretty strong marks in his favor.
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Post by chandler44 on Jul 2, 2007 15:12:25 GMT -5
But, Clemente's defense was better, so that matter also.
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Post by sadoug on Jul 2, 2007 18:14:33 GMT -5
Jackson never hit 300 in his life...Clemente was as good as ever played in right field...Clemente never drove in 100 runs...Jackson struck out at a mighty clip...I am with Vega on this one
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Post by vega51 on Jul 2, 2007 19:16:32 GMT -5
I believe he hit .262 career.
He was a good RF for a short time, then a DH.
He was a homerun hitter, nothing else.
Jackson does not belong in the same sentence with a guy like Clemente.
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Post by vega51 on Jul 2, 2007 19:18:47 GMT -5
and still James has him over Clemente? INCRIDIBLE.
Sorry if i can't take James too seriously when he has Biggio over Alomar, especially when he says Alomar was overated defensively, dumb statement.
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Post by chandler44 on Jul 2, 2007 19:27:28 GMT -5
I believe he hit .262 career. He was a good RF for a short time, then a DH. Actually there were only 4 seasons in his career where he played more DH than OF. He played 2102 games in the OF, 630 games as a DH. You seriously underestimate his output. .262/.356/.490 was a very good stat line when he played. His OPS was .846, but over his career, the average OPS was .704. That puts his OPS+ at 139. Jackson had a very good career. Clemente had a very good career as well, but his OBP was about the same and his power was less DESPITE playing in a more offensive time. Clemente's OPS was .834 (lower than Reggie's) and the average OPS during his career was .724. Clemente's OPS+ was 130. Offensively, Jackson was more productive over the course of his career. Clemente hit more singles but he didn't walk nearly as much as Jackson did. |
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Post by chandler44 on Jul 2, 2007 19:32:02 GMT -5
As I asked before, where is this printed? I'd like to actually read his reasonings and his case. I'd bet his case was a bit more thorough than "no way is he better".
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Post by vega51 on Jul 2, 2007 19:36:31 GMT -5
if there is an argument of jackson over clemente, then is a fool's argument because jackson is NOT in the same league with clemente.
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Post by chandler44 on Jul 2, 2007 19:40:22 GMT -5
Way to dodge the argument completely. Offensive, Jackson was in the same league with Clemente.
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Post by vega51 on Jul 2, 2007 19:50:46 GMT -5
nope, only homeruns, others, clemente was better.
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