|
|
Post by chandler44 on Jul 2, 2007 19:59:22 GMT -5
Vega, I've already posted some facts on the thread. For some odd reason, you absolutely refuse to make your case, probably because you know that the stats, except for batting average, are going to show Jackson as good OR better offensively. The only thing Clemente did better offensively was hit singles. Jackson got on base the same amount, hit for more power, walked more.
Oh well. I can by your responses that you're blindly faithful to Clemente and aren't even willing to consider the argument, so why try? We'll just have to agree to disagree and move on (at least I will).
|
|
|
|
Post by vega51 on Jul 2, 2007 20:09:53 GMT -5
i see no argument between jackson and clemente, really.
The ONLY thing Jackson did better was homer.
Jackson was a homerun hitter, Clemente was a COMPLETE baseball player, they don't belong in the same league, really.
|
|
|
|
Post by hembo36 on Jul 2, 2007 21:15:42 GMT -5
i suppose Mays is ranked 125th..Where does meth man rank mays, who is arguably the best all around baseball player in history...
|
|
|
|
Post by astrobuddy on Jul 2, 2007 21:18:31 GMT -5
They are both Hall of Famers... That puts them in the same sentence.
Vega.. wasnt Clemente from Puerto Rico?
|
|
|
|
Post by sadoug on Jul 2, 2007 23:43:11 GMT -5
I always thought Reggis jackson was the most over rated player in the game...terrible fielder...struck out way, way too much...He did drive in lots of runs, but he always had guys on base ahead of him...he was not a pimple on Clemente's butt as a hitter...and in no way could he compete with Clemente in the field...Clemente was maybe the best ever in right
|
|
|
|
Post by sadoug on Jul 2, 2007 23:46:30 GMT -5
by the way AB...when you commented to me that no one ever was unanimously elected to the HOF...I was shocked....it never occurred to me that anyone that followed baseball even a little did not know that...that was the point of my rant.
|
|
|
|
Post by astrobuddy on Jul 2, 2007 23:49:16 GMT -5
I would imagine that MOST people that follow baseball dont know that. That is a "stat" that most who follow the game wouldnt just casually know.
You think the casual fan would know that?
|
|
|
|
Post by sadoug on Jul 3, 2007 9:05:17 GMT -5
obviously when I said I was shocked that anyone that even casually followed the game knew that it would follow that I think the casual fan would know that
|
|
|
|
Post by Ken on Jul 3, 2007 9:12:38 GMT -5
I always thought Reggis jackson was the most over rated player in the game...terrible fielder...struck out way, way too much...He did drive in lots of runs, but he always had guys on base ahead of him... I agree with most of what you said, Doug. However, the thing that separated Reggie from the rest other than the fact that he was a Yankee, and they tend to get more media attention is that he was Mr. Clutch. He did it best, when it mattered, and that says a lot when you're in a pressure situation, or in the playoffs, or World Series and facing the best pitching in baseball. I'm going to start so many fights here, but I honestly never saw Bagwell as a clutch performer. Biggio, got better over the years, but in the early to mid 90's playoffs, he suffered the same fate. |
|
|
|
Post by vega51 on Jul 3, 2007 9:18:55 GMT -5
Ken, agreed, but Clemente had these numbers in Playoffs:
.318/.354/.449
Including, .362/.383/.534 in the WS including a throw from RF that everyone talks about. They won both WS he played at.
Clemente was as clutch as Reggie was, difference, NO TV and NO YANKEE uniform.
|
|
|
|
Post by sadoug on Jul 3, 2007 9:47:45 GMT -5
now THAT is why we always used to know you as the minister of Reason ken...true and true.
Vega is right on in the argument...it really is a shame to even mention Reggie jackson in the same breath as Clemente....as for bags...true...he had no numbers in playoffs, but I always thought he took a bit of a bad rap there....since no one was EVER on base when he came up, he never saw a pitch in the strike zone....at first he walked and walked...but it was like he got desperate or frustrated and started swinging at those offerings....a pitiful defense i agree...but it is the best I can offer
|
|
|
|
Post by hembo36 on Jul 3, 2007 11:47:54 GMT -5
i agree with vega and doug..comparing clemente and jackson is silly as hell
|
|
|
|
Post by Ken on Jul 3, 2007 11:56:36 GMT -5
No, I think you're right, Doug. The whole team seemed to press to hard, and it wasn't just Bagwell. Bell would disappear, Biggio...all our hitters would just go in the tank. You can't just motivate yourself to "play harder" in baseball, like you can in football. You have to remain at ease and just play the game. Our boys tried to press the issue.
|
|
|
|
Post by sadoug on Jul 3, 2007 16:06:15 GMT -5
only one more thing and i am done with this thread....reggie jackson would have been out of the game years and years before he finally retired had there not been a Designated hitter....he could not field a position....and that is part of the reason I get so steamed whenever I hear about him....It didnt have to be that way.. He should have been an above average or even great fielder...He was very fast, and had a great arm...he just didnt care...he wouldnt put forth even a little effort to go shag flies in the OF....he felt he was above having to play defense....to have him compared to one of the greatest fielders of all time, that could hit circles around him to boot....I may bust a gut thinking about it.
|
|
|
|
Post by jamesa46 on Jul 3, 2007 17:30:58 GMT -5
Offensively, Clemente was a far superior hitter than Jackson. Just look at their career BA's - Clemente's career BA was .317 and Jackson's .262, Plus Clemente had 190 hits or more per season six times. Clemente was a much more difficult hitter to pitch to because he had an unorthodox hitting zone.
You couldn't waste one on Clemente by throwing one high and outside either because Clemente would reach out and drive the ball to the opposite field for an extra base hit. You couldn't set your defense against him because he would hit the ball everywhere and Clemente was not a lightweight with the bat.
He hit a lot of extra base hits and played most of his career at Forbes Field which was a tough place to hit for a righthanded hitter with the high fences and 360 ft. down the left field line and 357 ft. to left center.
Clemente was also a far superior base runner and when speaking of defense, Clemente was one of the all-time great outfielders with a tremendous throwing arm. Clemente many times picked runners off first with his great arm and if you drove a single to rightfield in front of him you better be hustling down the line from home to first base because he could throw out the baserunner at first on a single to right because of his great arm.
As for Reggie Jackson's defense, It was non-existant. He had no defense. Were it not for the American League DH, Jackson would have had to retire many years before he did because he simply could not play defense anymore for most of his career.
|
|
