Arod the Great

[astrobuddy]

Vega... name the player who said Biggio and Bagwell refused to work with them?

Coach.. I cant name it, because I have NEVER heard anyone say anything but great things about Bagwell and Biggio. That they are great team mates. I dont know where Vega is getting all this nonsense now saying they are bad teammates.

Trading Melusky was the right thing to do. Plus... That was your boy Gerry Hunsicker. I thought he wasnt a lapdog?

[crashtest]

Biggio and Bagwell were terrific players. I'd put their 5 best consecutive seasons up against any in the history of baseball. The Astros have never been in the position of playing the end-game of HoF careers*. As we are finding out, it is not an easy thing to do. The Cards had a similar problem with Stan Musial in the early 60's. I've ragged on Bidge and his 3k as much as anyone, but c'mon. I would have been perfectly satisfied with Bidge batting 6th and starting 4 games a week until 3k. But having him lead-off is as sh!tbrained stupid as not breaking ST with Pence. Whoever was/is responsible for those decisions should have his balls removed and run-up on the flagpole on Tal's Hill and left to dry like raisins in the sun as a warning to all like Blackbeard's head on a pole.

*OK, I forgot Ryan --- boy, we did a great job there, didn't we?

[hembo36]

ab...you just dont get it...nobody in the sports world gives two f**ks what the guy does other than play ball..They probably dont want him skydiving or doing stunt work on the side but past that who cares? Are you under the impression he is the only guy in pro sports who has cheated ? The list is a mile long bro...arod is a target because he makes 25 mil per year...


lets look at reality..he is arguably one of the best players to have ever set foot on a baseball diamond..its actually clear cut and verifiable.. the biggio and bagwell types arent even in the same category as the Arod types

i could go to another board who knows sh*t about baseball and ask them if they have ever heard of arod..i can then ask them to tell me who biggio is..who do you think they will have heard about? they dont know about him from his off the field exploits, which to be honest, are a recent development..he hasnt always been this way

steinbrenner and cashman care about little else than winning..i actually wouldnt be surprised if steinbrenner hasnt hooked him up with people himself.. he is twice the ballplayer the next closest guy on that team is let alone MLB..he has had no real comp over the last several years other than maybe one year wonders and pujols.

No..as much sh*t as this guy has taken..absolutely i take his side
the guy is awesome

[hembo36]

Biggio and Bagwell were terrific players. I'd put their 5 best consecutive seasons up against any in the history of baseball

lets dont go overboard

[astrobuddy]

hembo... sorry man, you are just flat clueless. I know Arod is your baseball God. I am sorry that it offends you that I dont like the guy. I think what he did on the field was a bush league classless thing to do.

Biggio for about 5 year was the best player in MLB. The only reason anyone hasnt heard about him is that they are casual fans that learn about the game watching ESPN.

Biggio will be in the HOF if he dies today. Arod would be a borderline inductee. His career isnt complete. The catagory of one of the best ever is a large one. It isnt just 5 or 10 members. Biggio and Bagwell are in that discussion.

If Biggio and Bagwell had played for the Yankees or Red Sox right now you would be telling me how great they are.

But to discount them off hand as being just throw away kinda good players shows your ignorance about the history of the game.

The Yankees, Steinbrenner and the Players Union is what is wrong with this game.

How much winning have the Yankees been doing lately? They havent won sh*t in years.

[crashtest]

hembo36 said:

Biggio and Bagwell were terrific players. I'd put their 5 best consecutive seasons up against any in the history of baseball

lets dont go overboard

Hey, that's not just my opinion. Bill James said as much in his Historical Baseball Abstract. He had Bagwell right up there with Gehrig and Bidge as one of the top 2Bs of all time. They really were "all that" in their prime.

[astrobuddy]

Crash... if hembo didnt hear ESPN say it, it didnt happen.

[chandler44]

vega51 said:

You need DIFFERENT personalities on your team not a boyscout club.

Says who? Where is it written that you have to have some a$$h*les and malcontents to win it all?

We had Nevin and Meleusky, 2 VERY GOOD HITTERS, one at third, the other at C but because they could NOT GET ALONG WITH Biggio and Bagwell they were gone.

Nevin was far from being a very good hitter while in Houston, and it was a few years later before he became a very productive hitter.

Nevin wasn't traded because he didn't get along with bagwell & Biggio, he was traded because he was a whiny crybaby. He cried about being in the minors too long and he cried about them not moving Caminiti to make room. He then came up and hit .117 and they shipped him out.

As far as Meluskey, NO ONE on the team liked him. He punched a veteran and pretty much alienated every one.

[chandler44]

www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/4407928.html

Highlights:

About Bagwell:

He was beloved in his clubhouse in a way athletes aren't usually beloved. He was the one a teammate would telephone in the middle of the night if he needed help.
...
They loved Bagwell, who could tell them to adjust their socks or remove their earring without being confrontational. He helped build an environment in which players such as Carl Everett, who had had trouble elsewhere, had their best seasons.

Bagwell had a locker near the center of the room at Minute Maid Park, a locker that spoke volumes about his role on the team. When hitters got upset that Roy Oswalt wasn't protecting them, Bagwell had a face-to-face chat. That 2004 conversation was one of the defining moments of a playoff run.

When veterans thought a particular young player was getting too full of himself, Bagwell took him out to dinner and reminded him there never would be another Babe Ruth.

Biggio

Bagwell and Craig Biggio helped transform the Astros in a variety of ways, but their styles were different. Biggio is edgier, angrier. Teammates respect him, but don't really love him.

Take what you will from it.

[vega51]

Sometime you have to have guys like that to win games.

Kent was an a$$h*le, but a good player.

Guys like Shefield, Bonds, Johnson (Randy), Clemens are difficult players, but are winners.

Just because they are a$$h*les that does not mean you SHOULD go after them. A team of boyscouts will not win much, actually, this team started to win series when the leaders were not Biggio and Bagwell but Clmens, Kent, Pettitte and Beltran.

Now, i have Oswalt in the category of great also, with a great attitude.

[chandler44]

Sometime you have to have guys like that to win games.

Damn, and all this time I thought all you had to do was score at least one more run than the other team to win games.

I guess we'll come up with a new stat: AR (a$$h*le ratio). To better predict what team will win it all, we'll measure their AR and rate them. Should we give credit to a team if their manager is also an a$$h*le?

Astros better make a trade and try to pickup an a$$h*le or two to fix that low AR. It was actually pretty high earlier in the year, but as you can tell during that 10 game losing streak, everyone just got too nice. As soon as they can get that AR back up, they'll start to win some more.

[redbaron]

We don't need to trade for an a$$h*le, we already have Biggio.

Chandler, I thought Vega's post made some very good points. Your problem is that you wouldn't admit that Vega was right or made a good point if your life depended on it, especially if he didn't pay homage to Bagwell and Biggio.

Soemtimes a manager needs to be an a$$h*le. Garner needs to start telling some of these wimps what they need to do instead of trying to pacify them and treat them with kid gloves. Lance Berkman is a prime example of a guy who needs to be told how it is.

[astrobuddy]

JB.. do you think any of the players on the Cubs team are impressed or scared of Pinella?

Hell No. Most could kick his ass inside of 30 seconds. I dont know why and can figure out why anyone thinks that a manager that yells and screams and breaks things is a good motivator. That may work in High School, but not in the bigs. Why would it?

These guys know what there job is. You think Garner yelling at Berkman will make him all of a sudden start hitting better?

Players who play well and have talent are what makes a team win, not being an a$$h*le.

[vega51]

AB, Berkman has gone to press to dish the organization and is not hitting.

Good manager would put the pressure on the player instead of the player to the organization, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE NOT HITTING AT ALL.

[chandler44]

redbaron said:

Your problem is that you wouldn't admit that Vega was right or made a good point if your life depended on it, especially if he didn't pay homage to Bagwell and Biggio.

I have no problem telling Vega if I think he's right or has made a good point and I've done so countless times in the past. I'm disagreeing here because I disagree, not because he's vega and I think I have to.